Comments on: Cycling Groups at Stop Signs and Red Lights http://flbikelaw.org/2009/10/cycling-groups-at-stop-signs-and-red-lights/ Questions, answers and news about Florida bicycle laws and law enforcement Sun, 13 May 2012 12:08:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Geo http://flbikelaw.org/2009/10/cycling-groups-at-stop-signs-and-red-lights/comment-page-1/#comment-61 Geo Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:35:47 +0000 http://flbikelaw.org/?p=188#comment-61 I agree wholeheartedly about the racing groups that seem to think the roads are their race tracks, and disregard the laws and the rights of others. There was a recent high profile case in Palm Beach County in which a motorist and a racing group had a serious conflict. Apparently, both sides at fault, but bad press for the cycling community in general. Most non-cyclists don't know the difference, and we all get the bad rep. One very influential cycling group has taken action and is trying to put the pressure on the the other aggressive groups to "be nice" and obey the laws. The law enforcement community seems to be taking action as well. We will see how that plays out. I agree wholeheartedly about the racing groups that seem to think the roads are their race tracks, and disregard the laws and the rights of others.
There was a recent high profile case in Palm Beach County in which a motorist and a racing group had a serious conflict. Apparently, both sides at fault, but bad press for the cycling community in general. Most non-cyclists don’t know the difference, and we all get the bad rep. One very influential cycling group has taken action and is trying to put the pressure on the the other aggressive groups to “be nice” and obey the laws. The law enforcement community seems to be taking action as well. We will see how that plays out.

]]> By: Bruce Epperson http://flbikelaw.org/2009/10/cycling-groups-at-stop-signs-and-red-lights/comment-page-1/#comment-60 Bruce Epperson Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:57:00 +0000 http://flbikelaw.org/?p=188#comment-60 I wholeheartedly agree with Geo that the typical "club ride" pace line or group can be conducted without any of its individual participants violating any of the provisions of the state vehicle code. However, many cyclists who inquire about this subject seem to assume the opposite, asking, in essence, "well, it's absolutely impossible to ride in a rapid paceline or in a high-performance group and fullfill every requirement of the law, so the only rational conclusion is that some of the technical provisions of law HAVE to be excused. Which ones? My point is this: that logic is delusional. If performance riding cannot be made compatible with the law, then there is a general consensus outside our tight little circle that performance cycling must be discontinued. I wholeheartedly agree with Geo that the typical “club ride” pace line or group can be conducted without any of its individual participants violating any of the provisions of the state vehicle code. However, many cyclists who inquire about this subject seem to assume the opposite, asking, in essence, “well, it’s absolutely impossible to ride in a rapid paceline or in a high-performance group and fullfill every requirement of the law, so the only rational conclusion is that some of the technical provisions of law HAVE to be excused. Which ones? My point is this: that logic is delusional. If performance riding cannot be made compatible with the law, then there is a general consensus outside our tight little circle that performance cycling must be discontinued.

]]> By: Geo http://flbikelaw.org/2009/10/cycling-groups-at-stop-signs-and-red-lights/comment-page-1/#comment-58 Geo Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:06:40 +0000 http://flbikelaw.org/?p=188#comment-58 Bruce raises some excellent points. Cyclists and others should always be aware of local ordinances and their definitions. Florida statutes do not prevent local authorities from regulating certain activities within their jurisdictions, including: FS 316.008 – Powers of Local Authorities (1)(c) Regulating or prohibiting processions or assemblages on the streets and highways…. However, they cannot conflict with the requirement to maintain uniformity throughout the state. FS 316.007 –Provisions Uniform Throughout the State The provisions of this chapter shall be applicable and uniform throughout the state …. And no local authority shall enact or enforce any ordinance on a matter covered in this chapter unless expressly authorized …. Please keep in mind that this site is FLbikelaw.org, and is to discuss Florida statutes. It would be impractical to try to cover all the ordinances in all the municipalities. FS 316.191 – Racing on Highways, only addresses “motor vehicles” and does not apply to bicyclists. I am not aware of a reference to “parades” in state statutes. If anyone is, please let me know. There are many counties and municipalities that recognize the health, economic and other benefits of cycling and solicit and encourage cycling activities. I just attended the Mt. Dora Bicycle Festival in which 1000 cyclists from around the state participated. Lake County derives considerable economic benefit from the cyclists that stay in hotels and partake in restaurants for that weekend. There are many other cycling activities such as the 2000 riders of the recent St. Augustine to Daytona MS Ride. They not only contribute to the local economies, but generate millions of dollars for charity. The nature of cyclists is to ride in groups for a lot of reasons, their own safety being one. It would seem to be counterproductive for those jurisdictions to impose and strictly enforce onerous regulations against cyclists. The “race or parade” regulations might also prevent the gathering of operators of other legal vehicles on the roadways, such as motorcycles and groups of cars, with similar implications. Bruce also indicated he had been asked by police departments and city officials “What can we do about those annoying wolfpacks of cyclists?” I am also frequently asked the same question. My answer is always “Know and Enforce the laws!” The purpose of the site is to assist officers in understanding those laws. I must take issue with some of the other comments. Bruce stated: “The question itself presumes that riding a bicycle in a group or paceline makes it impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device in the normal way he or she would if riding alone. If this is, indeed, the case, then simply riding in such a manner violates the law.” Asking the question does not necessarily produce a valid presumption. It is simply a question. To then try to conclude that “If this is, indeed, the case”, cyclists are violating traffic laws, is not logically supportable. More specifically, I do not agree that cyclists in groups cannot obey the laws. As I stated, each individual has the responsibility act as a separate entity. There is no reason all the cyclists in a group cannot stop at a red light. It is not “impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device”. Bruce also stated “In admitting that pacelines and group rides are inherently incompatible with the existing black letter of the law, you have already answered the question.” I don’t believe I admitted to your version, that groups are “inherently incompatible” with the law. Cyclists in groups can easily comply with the strict letter of the law. They can line up single file at red lights one behind the other, and wait their turn to cross the intersection. That would result in inefficient traffic backlogs and might encourage illegal and dangerous behavior of others. Groups of conscientious cyclists will do what is necessary for polite and efficient roadway use, when to do otherwise would contradict common sense and unnecessarily delay other roadway users. Too frequently, some assume that actions of cyclists, whether alone or in groups, by simply being in the roadway, are illegal and dangerous. It is not the actions of a cyclist or even a small or large group riding legally that creates the unsafe condition. The hazardous conditions arise when impatient drivers pass too closely, pass illegally within substandard-width lanes, and illegally cross the center line to pass with oncoming traffic, blind curves and bridges ahead. Fortunately, cycling is quite safe and enjoyable and is made even moreso when cyclists understand the laws and operate their vehicles as they would any other vehicle on the roadways, whether alone or in a group. If there is case law or statewide legal precedent that contradicts what I have said, I welcome the reference. Bruce raises some excellent points.

Cyclists and others should always be aware of local ordinances and their definitions. Florida statutes do not prevent local authorities from regulating certain activities within their jurisdictions, including:

FS 316.008 – Powers of Local Authorities
(1)(c) Regulating or prohibiting processions or assemblages on the streets and highways….

However, they cannot conflict with the requirement to maintain uniformity throughout the state.

FS 316.007 –Provisions Uniform Throughout the State
The provisions of this chapter shall be applicable and uniform throughout the state …. And no local authority shall enact or enforce any ordinance on a matter covered in this chapter unless expressly authorized ….

Please keep in mind that this site is FLbikelaw.org, and is to discuss Florida statutes. It would be impractical to try to cover all the ordinances in all the municipalities.

FS 316.191 – Racing on Highways, only addresses “motor vehicles” and does not apply to bicyclists. I am not aware of a reference to “parades” in state statutes. If anyone is, please let me know.

There are many counties and municipalities that recognize the health, economic and other benefits of cycling and solicit and encourage cycling activities. I just attended the Mt. Dora Bicycle Festival in which 1000 cyclists from around the state participated. Lake County derives considerable economic benefit from the cyclists that stay in hotels and partake in restaurants for that weekend.

There are many other cycling activities such as the 2000 riders of the recent St. Augustine to Daytona MS Ride. They not only contribute to the local economies, but generate millions of dollars for charity.

The nature of cyclists is to ride in groups for a lot of reasons, their own safety being one. It would seem to be counterproductive for those jurisdictions to impose and strictly enforce onerous regulations against cyclists. The “race or parade” regulations might also prevent the gathering of operators of other legal vehicles on the roadways, such as motorcycles and groups of cars, with similar implications.

Bruce also indicated he had been asked by police departments and city officials “What can we do about those annoying wolfpacks of cyclists?” I am also frequently asked the same question. My answer is always “Know and Enforce the laws!” The purpose of the site is to assist officers in understanding those laws.

I must take issue with some of the other comments.

Bruce stated: “The question itself presumes that riding a bicycle in a group or paceline makes it impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device in the normal way he or she would if riding alone. If this is, indeed, the case, then simply riding in such a manner violates the law.”

Asking the question does not necessarily produce a valid presumption. It is simply a question. To then try to conclude that “If this is, indeed, the case”, cyclists are violating traffic laws, is not logically supportable.

More specifically, I do not agree that cyclists in groups cannot obey the laws. As I stated, each individual has the responsibility act as a separate entity. There is no reason all the cyclists in a group cannot stop at a red light. It is not “impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device”.

Bruce also stated “In admitting that pacelines and group rides are inherently incompatible with the existing black letter of the law, you have already answered the question.”

I don’t believe I admitted to your version, that groups are “inherently incompatible” with the law. Cyclists in groups can easily comply with the strict letter of the law. They can line up single file at red lights one behind the other, and wait their turn to cross the intersection. That would result in inefficient traffic backlogs and might encourage illegal and dangerous behavior of others. Groups of conscientious cyclists will do what is necessary for polite and efficient roadway use, when to do otherwise would contradict common sense and unnecessarily delay other roadway users.

Too frequently, some assume that actions of cyclists, whether alone or in groups, by simply being in the roadway, are illegal and dangerous. It is not the actions of a cyclist or even a small or large group riding legally that creates the unsafe condition. The hazardous conditions arise when impatient drivers pass too closely, pass illegally within substandard-width lanes, and illegally cross the center line to pass with oncoming traffic, blind curves and bridges ahead.

Fortunately, cycling is quite safe and enjoyable and is made even moreso when cyclists understand the laws and operate their vehicles as they would any other vehicle on the roadways, whether alone or in a group.

If there is case law or statewide legal precedent that contradicts what I have said, I welcome the reference.

]]> By: Bruce Epperson http://flbikelaw.org/2009/10/cycling-groups-at-stop-signs-and-red-lights/comment-page-1/#comment-56 Bruce Epperson Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:05:57 +0000 http://flbikelaw.org/?p=188#comment-56 As a municipal law attorney, this is a question I have been asked about, usually in a more general context. The question itself presumes that riding a bicycle in a group or paceline makes it impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device in the normal way he or she would if riding alone. If this is, indeed, the case, then simply riding in such a manner violates the law. It is, by definition, a race, parade, or special event, because these are defined in most municipal codes as activities where the proposed use of the roadway cannot conform to the normal rules of the road. A permit is almost always required, and a police escort and roadway closure and other public works assistance is typical. Therefore, I would recommend that this is probably not the best choice of topics for an open discussion, as I can assure you that I have been asked by police departments and city officials "what can we do about those annoying wolfpacks of cyclists?" In admitting that pacelines and group rides are inherently incompatible with the existing black letter of the law, you have already answered the question: "no special legislation is necessary--the activity is already an enforceable violation, i.e. holding a race or parade on the roadway without a required permit." -Bruce Epperson Davie, FL As a municipal law attorney, this is a question I have been asked about, usually in a more general context. The question itself presumes that riding a bicycle in a group or paceline makes it impossible, impractical, or dangerous for each individual cyclist to obey a traffic control device in the normal way he or she would if riding alone. If this is, indeed, the case, then simply riding in such a manner violates the law. It is, by definition, a race, parade, or special event, because these are defined in most municipal codes as activities where the proposed use of the roadway cannot conform to the normal rules of the road. A permit is almost always required, and a police escort and roadway closure and other public works assistance is typical.

Therefore, I would recommend that this is probably not the best choice of topics for an open discussion, as I can assure you that I have been asked by police departments and city officials “what can we do about those annoying wolfpacks of cyclists?” In admitting that pacelines and group rides are inherently incompatible with the existing black letter of the law, you have already answered the question: “no special legislation is necessary–the activity is already an enforceable violation, i.e. holding a race or parade on the roadway without a required permit.”

-Bruce Epperson
Davie, FL

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